I thought a little light fare for a Monday morning might be in order. The question is this: for students in a theological seminary who want to go on to a Ph.D. program in a biblical or theological field, what is the best degree for them to pursue?
The two main options I’m thinking about are the MA or the M.Div.
At several schools I’ve been associated with, the MA has been promoted as the best pre-Ph.D. degree. But I tend to advocate the M.Div. Here are a couple reasons why:
- Most seminaries have developed their faculty and curriculum around the M.Div., from which the M.A. is trimmed. In general, this means that M.Div. students are maximizing their seminary’s educational offerings in a way that M.A. students aren’t.
- As long as there are a few electives and a robust curriculum in place, M.Div. students tend to get better exposure to multiple disciplines within the theological fields, better preparing them for all of the factors that go into understanding the history of and influences on biblical and theological studies.
- Most students who come out of a seminary context are going to be looking for ecclesiastically oriented jobs when they’re done with their Ph.D.s; that is, they will be teaching in seminary or christian college contexts if they land a job. Some seminaries prefer and/or require an M.Div. for all their teaching faculty; and, going back to the M.Div. as the core of most seminary curricula, a faculty member with an M.Div. comes in with a better grasp of what a seminary is all about beyond his or her specific field of study.
- Related to point 3, many seminaries will want professors who have some handle on how their academic field of study is ministerially and/or spiritually formative. The M.Div. gives students some tools for thinking through various areas of “on the ground” practice (individual, church, missional) that an M.A. might leave aside.
- Also related to point 3, many folks who end up in theologically oriented or religiously committed educational institutions will want or need to be ordained. Some denominations will require an M.Div. for this.
- Many people who get Ph.D.s end up not securing academic employment. The M.Div. leaves more options open for securing a “teaching pastor” type job, especially if a student is part of a denomination with seminary requirements for ordination.
What are your thoughts? What’s the best way for a seminary student to prepare for a Ph.D. and why?
(Note that this is assuming a seminary context with some general seminary “tracks” toward theological education. I think that “religious studies” with a track toward a university post is a different animal altogether.)
When I went through the application process this year I applied to secular religious studies programs and theological schools both. The secular programs didn’t seem to care between M.Div. and M.A., but every person I talked with in a theological school or seminary said the M.Div. is all but required over the M.A.
That’s great on-the-ground info, Katie. Thanks!
If I recall correctly you got into a religiously-affiliated Ph.D. program, no? Did you have an M.Div. in hand?
I am in the process of applying to seminary with hopes of continuing on to a Ph.D. program. I have decided to do the M.Div. because the Ph.D. programs I’ve looked at all seem to require it. The seminary in which I’m interested (Wesley Theological Seminary / D.C.) has a one year M.Th.S. degree that can be completed after the M.Div. for students who still want a Biblical studies degree. I may take this route, making my stay at seminary four years rather than three.
Crystal, are those PhD programs you’re looking at affiliated with div. schools or seminaries? I’m curious as to how much your experience mirrors Katie’s.
They are divinity schools. For instance, I read through the requirements at Yale, Harvard, and several in the Virginia area. If I remember correctly, they all seemed to require a M.Div. and Hebrew/Greek proficiency.
Sorry it took so long to get back–didn’t notice the question. I was accepted at Drew University, Temple University and Lutheran Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. I do have an M.Div. in hand, which I think both Drew and Lutheran preferred if not absolute required. I don’t think it was required for Temple.
There are benefits to both. The MA can be completed in less time and let you move along to PhD studies more quickly. The MDiv gives you ministry education and preparation, as well. If you are planning on teaching in the future, many schools look favorably on that experience when looking at potential candidates during the hiring process. Another option is the MTS–Master of Theological Studies. It is typically a three year degree, like the MDiv, but is geared toward those who plan on going into further academic studies.
I am currently a PhD candidate in systematic theology. My undergrad degree is in youth ministry and I have a Master of Arts in Religion (specifically Bible and theology). That’s the course my academic journey took. While I would like to have changed from where I received my previous two degrees, I did fine in PhD studies. It’s just the damn dissertation that’s standing in my way!
While I chose an MA over an MDIV these arguments for the MDIV are very strong. I agree that most of us pursuing the PhD will end up teaching in ecclesiastical context rather than a university. While the MA will not always shortchange these are very good reasons for why it might.
Remind me, Brian, where are you doing your Ph.D.? Did you find what some of the other comments have found in terms of some schools strongly preferring the M.Div.?
I am not to the PhD as of yet. I am doing a ThM right now. I decided to go MA to ThM to PhD route rather than MDiv to PhD route. I agree with you b/c I know that what you say is true of many churches and seminaries in that the MDiv is seen as a degree that shows you are more rounded in regards to theory and experience.
As a consumer…of the fruit of academic work….I find there is often a disconnect between the community of believers and the work of a professional academic guild. I am not sure that a degree…broadens one’s sensitivities necessarily…but it might provide some cross fertilization with the broader field that ministers…and other interpreters of the scripture necessarily navigate. Take for example…the different approaches of Doug Campbell…and Stephen Chapman..both quite distinguished in their respective fields…and yet one is in my experience far more conversant with the world of the minister. Does the academic degree program….I suspect not. Perhaps the more needed question…why so many PhDs? I rarely meet seminarians who are not at least considering… the PhD…as at least a potential goal. Do we really need such specially trained professionals to train ministers? Ironically in my courses at Duke many of the Divinity students had a fairly poor command of the basics of scripture.
Luke, are you suggesting that academic prowess might not be the single greatest thing with which one can serve the church?! How dare you!
Here is a great article on Why not to get a Ph.D. in the humanities: http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the-Huma/44846/
Another crucial bonus of the M.Div: it requires you to learn the languages (or at least should, and still does at the best schools), whereas with the M.A. these are often precisely what get sacrificed in the year that is substracted from studies.
One of the reasons, I have heard many professors say, that the best Ph.D. programs for biblical studies in both Europe and America–no matter how liberal–are often disproportionately filled with evangelicals with M.Div’s, since they’ve had to learn the languages far better than most liberal schools provide for.
Depends on the MA, Nick. Many–and I mean many–MA programs are much more linguistically heavy than MDiv pgms. It just depends on the kind of program you’re looking into.
JD, fair point–though I think in general the seminary context we’re talking about largely substantiates Nick’s position. I know that’s not the whole story, though, even for seminaries…
Yes, but many of the people applying to PhD pgms in religion are not coming out of seminaries, but from other sorts of pgms. That’s an important fact to keep in mind–and one too often forgotten by seminary-oriented folks.
The seminary I attended had an M.Div honor’s program which allowed me to do most of my 90 hours in the disciplines (theology, bible, philosophy, history), bypassing most of the practics courses. They’ve had good success placing students into Ph.D. programs from the honors program.
I graduated with an MA in Theology (BS/T) from Fuller in 2007, and if I ever decide to do PhD work I’m pretty sure I’ll have some making up to do. Especially at Fuller which, I guess due to size, doesn’t make a big deal of Master’s theses, the MA didn’t leave me in a great place for future studies. I went to a great Bible College for Undergrad so I don’t feel like I missed out in any other areas. Interesting thread!
I got an MA in Religion, which sounds very similar to yours. Did I get into a top PhD program like University of Chicago, etc? No. But I did get in to a seminary–a UMC seminary–and I am very happy there. I actually think I am happier there than I would have been elsewhere. And I think I have some great connections and opportunities. Never rule anything out!
Since the M.Div. usually contains the whole of the M.A. program and more, there’s no real debate that the M.Div. is going to be at least as good preparation and provide more opportunities. The M.Div., though, is simply more troublesome to obtain: more stringent on-campus residency requirements, internship requirements, an extra year of study, and an extra $15-20k of tuition, all of which are reasons why I’m not doing the M.Div.
A related question, though, would be whether it would be better preparation to do a Th.M. at a second seminary before getting a PhD at a third institution, which used to be more prevalent. Again, no one’s going to deny that an additional year of preparation at another institution would be beneficial, but it takes time, money, and moving to yet another school.
Don, I do think that, academically speaking, an MA followed by a ThM can be a good path toward academic preparation, at times better prep for a PhD than an MDiv.
As an academic advisor to students at Fuller Seminary, I tell students that the M.Div degree leaves the most doors open. I see a lot of students finish an MA because it’s faster and easier, but then have to come back to school to make up the difference when they decide to do a PhD, a DMin, become an ordained pastor, or go into military chaplaincy. The M.Div is the most comprehensive degree, and I believe the most equipping, but it’s not the best fit for everyone if you are sure that you don’t need certain doors left open.
I agree with Don L; I did my MA in Theology at Fuller and the MDiv would have been better, it was just more of a commitment than I could make with family and all. I’m in a PhD program now in Scotland and I don’t really think the MDiv would have prepared me more for what I’m doing now, but it probably would have helped in the future in the job hunt in both academia and the pastorate.
Another interesting question might be what undergrad majors offer the greatest benefit if someone was to have the foresight to know they wanted to go all the way to a PhD in a biblical/theology field. If I could go back I would have majored in philosophy and minored in German.
I guess it also depends on how much time and money you have. I orig started as an M.div student but after about two thirds of the way through switched to MA in New Testament bc the Mdiv did not offer enough electives and focused much of the curriculum on practical theology.
I don’t regret my decision at all bc this allowed me to take many more electives in biblical studies to give me a better foundation and research methods in preparation for a PhD. However I kind of cheated since I did take alot of Mdiv courses… Plus doing an Mdiv will probably take 1-2 years longer than an MA so that could be an important factor.
J.D.K.
SPOT ON! I actually just walked Friday for graduation and graduated with an M.Div. Before I went to seminary, I knew I wanted to go on for a Ph.D. I can’t tell you how many times people told me to ‘fast track’ it and just do an M.A. in NT. I agree with all your points, the student who pursues an M.Div will be far more well rounded than a typical M.A. student.
I’m headed into a Ph.D. program in the fall and feel quite well prepared for it and for a future position post-Ph.D.
I have been reading all of these posts and see that there are huge differences of opinions. I have been dealing with questions as to whether or not I am in the correct program. I am currently attending Wesley Theological Sem. and am in the M.T.S. program with the hopes of continuing on to PhD studies focusing in Christian Ethics. My concern is the small percentage of applicants accepted into PhD programs has made me rethink my decision. I know of many students who have their masters but have also been waiting YEARS to be accepted into a PhD program and I do not want to have to wait. So I am thinking of doing a duel degree with MTS and MDiv so I will have more options if I do not get accepted. What are your thoughts?
That sounds like a huge load, Jess, but there’s wisdom in it. From what I’ve seen, students with A averages and good GREs get into good PhD programs. But not always. And, once you’ve got that PhD, you then have to get a job. And not every A student with good, creative scholarship gets a job. Having other alternatives is never a bad idea. Also, having a divinity degree and, often, ordination itself, can often help procure professor gigs.
Hands down the MDiv is the best most well rounded degree – I made mine more academic heavy and focused in the biblical languages and it’s paid off in a lot of areas (some think the biblical languages don’t have much practical benefit but they are wrong, wrong and wrong).
I have not yet decided how I will move forward but I know with the MDiv I wan’t have to worry too much about having to make up too much work.
While the PhD is an awesome degree (I like the one offered at TEDS especially if one wants to stay in pastoral ministry), but I think another good combo is the ThM/DMin because if teaching is one’s gig, then with the ThM you could probably get to teach a few bible related classes and with the DMin teach the practical ones too – is this a pretty well rounded deal or what?
Plus it offers a bit of varitety and not just having to teach the same old same old all the time (only NT or only OT, etc). At least, that is how I see it. I could be wrong though. For this approach I like the programs offered at GCTS.
I went the MA track for two reasons: 1) I wanted to focus more on my particular area of study (Biblical Studies) and this track allowed me more flexibility in this, esp. when it came to languages. And 2) I wanted to eventually continue on and get a Ph.D. and believed the MA with its requirement of greater research and a Thesis would aid in this goal. For me, things took a different turn. I left Seminary and went full time into the ministry where I have been for 9 years. I have now started a Ph.D. program through University of Manchester, England and if you know much about the British system, the program is all research and the MA is required.
While I will not try and argue that the MA fully prepared me for pastoral ministry, I do believe that the MA prepared me to be a more theologically and biblically grounded preacher and teacher in the local church. Some of the other skills taught in the M.Div program had to come through on the job training and I struggled for a while in some of these areas, but I believe the church showed grace because I was both knowledgeable and passionate about teaching God’s word—the fact that I am a very relational person was also key. Nevertheless, If I had to do it all over again, I believe I would still chose the same route.
I will begin my MDiv studies at Yale Divinity School (and Berkeley School of Divinity at YDS) this Fall and I chose the MDiv over the MA for the reasons Daniel listed as well as an inkling that my vocation might take me into ordained ministry. Even if it weren’t, however, I’d want a degree that forced me into practicum at a nearby parish so that I would learn the ins and outs of the life of a church before going on into higher theological and philosophical pursuits.
The life of the Church, and not the particulars of belief or research, is the “pillar and ground of the truth” in the world (1 Timothy 3:15).
Oh, and, Daniel:
What are your thoughts on Alexander Schmemann’s “For the Life of the World”? I’m quite curious!
I’ll have to read it first… Don’t start trying to plumb the depths of my reading. You might be disillusioned quickly…
You really should – it’s a short read (100 pages with 40 extra split between 2 essays). I’d be really interested in your thoughts
http://www.amazon.com/Life-World-Sacraments-Orthodoxy/dp/0913836087/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273519999&sr=8-1
And have a five-page response paper to Eric in two weeks…
Yes plz.
Stab you both.
In Christian love.
I don’t have any systematic opinion about MA vs. M.Div., but I will say this: It’s tragic, this dream that one will do the minimum en route to an academic teaching post. Tragic for the dreamer because it almost certainly won’t work (because one will be competing for jobs against people who have taken their preparation more seriously). Tragic for the dreamer’s students if it does work. Just tragic, and contemptuous of the dues that go into becoming a scholar.
Great point, Christopher.
I think we might be degrading the MA here a little. We are assuming that everyone doing an MA is doing it because they want a quicker route through. This is not the case for many! We are also assuming that the MA track is less rigorous or less academic in some way. Just because there are less classes doesn’t mean that it is not helping to equip and train the student for the particular task/career that the particular program was designed for. My MA program was 45 credit hours and I know that I spent many more hours per class on reading and writing than did some in their M.Div classes.
Rob, who’s “we”?
I’m not assuming that the MA is less rigorous, etc., but I am arguing that in a seminary context the MDiv tends to be a better overall education. I wouldn’t say that it doesn’t help equip and train. But I would say that in general better equipment comes from the MDiv in a seminary context.
I do think, though, that a number of the responses indicate that people do take it for the very reason you outline–that seems to be the source of Chris’ frustration, despite his relative dispassion about MA v. MDiv in general.
I was attempting to be inclusive in my language. Maybe I should change it to “some” rather than “we.” =)
I do believe that some seminaries are set up and seeking to produce pastors and therefore staff and program in this way. Yet there are also some that desire to make an impact into the academic world and greatly desire to see their students continue on into a post-grad program.
Agreed, Rob. What schools do you have in mind in the academic emphasis?
Duke and Princeton would be two. Do you feel that Fuller is moving in that route?
Dr. Kirk, I know you wanted to side-step the issue and say that a university M.A. in Religion/Religious Studies as a pre-Ph.D. degree is a different beast. However, I think that the development of the pre-doctoral M.A. in seminaries is intended to be equivalent to and accomplish the same purpose as the university M.A. in Religion/Religious Studies, only within a seminary environment.
I recieved an MDiv from an evangelical seminary. The only downfall was that I wasn’t required to write a thesis as part of that degree whereas MA students wrote theses for their degrees. I think this effected the type of schools I was able to enter for PhD studies. I applied to three religious studies departments at universities and didn’t get in. I went back to school for advanced studies at the seminary level. After that, I applied to one religious studies department at a university in the states and got accepted, a ThD in the states and didn’t get accepted, and three British universities and recieved two acceptances. The long and short of it is, I think the thesis was the difference for me.
I’m going to second the previous sentiments concerning the Fuller MAT. The degree is essentially an MDiv with a year lopped off. I have spent almost my entire time at Fuller in survey classes which were largely repeats (albeit with more detail and higher quality) of what I did in undergrad. I would really have loved to come in and focus on languages and exegesis, but such a degree structure was unavailable when I came in. I don’t really feel prepared at all for a PhD, especially when you consider that I am about to get a Master’s in Theology having written only one major exegetical paper. That is crazy. Add in the enormous class sizes at Fuller, and I have remained largely anonymous to my professors. That means that you either assert your presence or you won’t get any recommendations. I am about to graduate, and I honestly wonder if I have wasted my time. Luckily, Fuller has an amazing faculty line-up. If I can get them to take me, I think I’ll do the ThM here at Fuller. If I can spend my time doing Intermediate and Advanced Greek, coupled with exegetical study under Green, Thompson, and Downs, then I feel like I would be prepared for a PhD anywhere. So my advice is definitely get an MDiv, but I suppose MA+ThM gets you into doctoral level classes faster…
The problem, though, is that the MDiv doesn’t allow you much more opportunity for biblical studies classes, it just requires another year’s worth of courses in ministry classes. I think the problem is not with the MAT vs. MDiv but that the MAT here is NOT the pre-academic degree Fuller pretends it is. It really does require a ThM or more advanced MTS or MA to give you the preparation necessary for a PhD.
I also question whether ministry courses are nearly as valuable as reading ministry books on your own, ministry experience, finding mentors, etc…
I think more seminaries need to have more rigorous MA programs for students who already have a good undergrad degree in biblical studies/theology. The way most MDIVs are set up assumes that the student is a blank slate before entering. This is all well and good, as most probably are, but the MA should be the degree for the student who doesn’t have the blank slate academically-speaking. I have enjoyed all of my classes (Bible, theology, preaching, etc.) and enjoy the holistic emphasis, but I would be pretty upset if I had already taken much of it in undergrad. An MA in languages/exegesis; theology (biblical or systematic); ethics; etc, which solely focuses on those courses, would be great for student preparing for PhD work. This is how the MA functions in the university setting. Besides, having a 90-120 credit hour MASTERS program is kind of silly, is it not? Most are 1-2 years tops.
I find myself frustrated with both options so I designed a degree program specifically for this purpose: http://kolhaadam.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/master-of-arts-in-biblical-theology/
As I said before, I have an MA in Religion, with emphases in Theology and Biblical Studies. I didn’t even write a thesis. It sounds similar to some who studied at Fuller, except I was at a Midwest Nazarene University. Things worked out for me. I am enrolled in a PhD program, and I am very happy there. Particularly with the route my life has taken in recent years.
That’s not to say that didn’t limit some of my options. It likely did. I gave up admission to Duke’s MTS program to stay at that small university (largely due to money). That would have likely opened up more options. But I honestly think the name of the school has a lot to do with things, perhaps just as much/more than the degree you received.
One thing that I have noticed at Fuller is that many students that I know are in the M.Div. program reluctantly. They don’t want to be in seminary another year, and they don’t like or find many of their practical ministry courses useful, and they’d rather focus their practical ministry courses in what they’re interested in (cross cultural ministry, youth ministry, collegiate ministry, counseling, etc.) but they’re doing it for their ordination requirements.
I would suggest that the seminaries have gotten the churches to buy into a false idea that the M.Div. is an excellent degree for ministry preparation. It seems like that not many people are advocating the M.Div. because they feel the coursework is especially helpful or beneficial for them, in terms of either Ph.D. preparation or ministering, but simply that the four letters M.Div. open more doors than M.A.
If getting an M.A. (with Biblical languages) were considered equivalent to an M.Div. in terms of ordination and job qualifications, how many of us would opt for the M.Div. for the sake of its course offerings?
What if, instead of spending an extra year getting an M.Div., that year was spent doing something else? You could get a Th.M., for example. Or you could study abroad in Europe or Israel to master your German, French, or Hebrew. If you wanted ministry preparation, you could do a full-time internship under a good pastor. It would be significantly less expensive than finishing the M.Div., and in my opinion, more profitable.
It’s actually the opposite, Don. The large denominations are the drivers of the continuing need for the M.Div.
As you say, there are ways to make things more academically rigorous, and perhaps the 2 + 1 or 2 + 2 years of MA plus ThM is a good way to do it. But as it stands, students opting for one degree still, by and large, in my opinion, do better to do the MDiv to maximize their seminary’s options.
and usually the ThM is for MDiv’s to get more theology or biblical studies under their belt. – An MAT at Fuller is essentially two ThM degrees in terms of credit hours.
Could you unpack this statement, Dr. Kirk? “The large denominations are the drivers of the continuing need for the M.Div.” Because the way I read this is that the large denominations continue to require the M.Div. due to the fact that large denominations have long bought into the M.Div., have large pockets to subsidize theological education, are slow to change, and old leaders feel like that the new leaders need to get the same degree that they got when they went to seminary, thus driving the need.
A good measure of the worth of the M.Div. is whether people who do not have the M.Div. as a requirement for ordination still pursue it as a worthwhile endeavor. I would imagine that the majority would opt out of it because the marginal value added between an M.A. and an M.Div., outside of ordination requirements, is low.
Yet many avoid the MDiv to avoid the bible languages.
When I took classes a Fuller in Seattle one gal in my Hebrew class was finishing up her MDiv – she avoided Greek and Hebrew to the end, whereas it was my first seminary class.
Somene’s point above about reading ministry books on one’s own is why I tended to avoid ministry classes and loaded my MDiv with biblical studies theology and the languages – I can and have been reading ministry books and gettng mentoring in ministry – I only had one chance to get mentored in the languages and biblical studies which was in seminary so I took it.
I also took one unit of clinical pastoral education (CPE – chaplaincy training) in a hospital setting and learned significantly more about ministry in that setting than anywhere else. In fact, doing a CPE residency could probably be an excellent year long alternative to a year of ministry classes.
That sounds like a FANTASTIC idea.
*remembering this*
Eric, glad to mention it. Many many pre-ministry folks really should seriousy consider CPE residency before heading off to take a congregation it will save them a lot of frustration in not knowing how to handle the different situations that come up in a parish/congregational setting.
I think that at Fuller one thing that will help with this is the new MATM degree–a 2 yr degree with a ministry focus. I am hoping it will also allow the “more academic” MAT degree to actually be that.
I have enjoyed reading through these comments. I have certainly given too much thought to this topic over the past ten years, as I flip flopped back and forth from the MDiv to the MTS at my seminary for all of the reasons mentioned here. The best decision I made was to do 4 units of CPE, I’m currently completing a CPE residency, and planning to continue to work as a hospital chaplain in the near future. So much amazing learning, theological reflection in an interfaith, interdisciplinary setting. I recommend it as the best way to get practical ministry experience and really have to face yourself as a minster and as a person in a way that doesn’t happen in seminary! I’m less inclined to go for the PhD in Theology at this point though, but who knows.
Lynn, you could always do supervisory training and then get a PhD in Pastoral Theology or a DMin in CPE.
“the best way to get practical ministry experience and really have to face yourself as a minster and as a person in a way that doesn’t happen in seminary!”
this is the key issue. and it will force you to put all the theological theoretical training to practical use in ways that are meaningful for people.