Comments on: Paul and the Pastorals http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/ Telling the story of the story-bound God Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:46:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: luke http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/#comment-4610 luke Fri, 06 Aug 2010 17:37:47 +0000 http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=988#comment-4610 How many examples are there of pseudipigraphal epistles? When comparing....Greek what kind of samples are being used? When suggesting that Paul speaks of the present and past tense of salvation....in different ways...to what extend are these incompatible?...How many sermons have your written over your lifetime...is it not the case that emphasis may be significantly different due to the audience. I don't care particularly certainly would agree that within the fundamentalist tradition there are certain approaches to reading the scripture that presume...I think erroneously how these writings were composed. However....NT academics is captivated by what seems to me...ittle evidence for the radical reinterpretation of the authorship of the pastoral epistles. How many examples are there of pseudipigraphal epistles? When comparing….Greek what kind of samples are being used? When suggesting that Paul speaks of the present and past tense of salvation….in different ways…to what extend are these incompatible?…How many sermons have your written over your lifetime…is it not the case that emphasis may be significantly different due to the audience. I don’t care particularly certainly would agree that within the fundamentalist tradition there are certain approaches to reading the scripture that presume…I think erroneously how these writings were composed. However….NT academics is captivated by what seems to me…ittle evidence for the radical reinterpretation of the authorship of the pastoral epistles.

]]> By: A Brief Response to Dr. Kirk on the Pastorals « Text, Community & Mission http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/#comment-4447 A Brief Response to Dr. Kirk on the Pastorals « Text, Community & Mission Tue, 03 Aug 2010 04:08:59 +0000 http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=988#comment-4447 [...] Pastoral Epistles, Paul Leave a Comment  There were a number of discussion regarding Dr. Daniel Krik’s post concerning the authorship of the Pastoral Epistles last week and I wanted to mount a meager defense for those affirm Pauline origin for the [...] [...] Pastoral Epistles, Paul Leave a Comment  There were a number of discussion regarding Dr. Daniel Krik’s post concerning the authorship of the Pastoral Epistles last week and I wanted to mount a meager defense for those affirm Pauline origin for the [...]

]]> By: Week in Review: 07.30.10 | Near Emmaus http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/#comment-4322 Week in Review: 07.30.10 | Near Emmaus Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:48:47 +0000 http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=988#comment-4322 [...] J.R. Daniel Kirk explains why he thinks Paul did not write the pastoral epistles. Mark Stevens shares some thoughts on this matter as well (in direct response to my own [...] [...] J.R. Daniel Kirk explains why he thinks Paul did not write the pastoral epistles. Mark Stevens shares some thoughts on this matter as well (in direct response to my own [...]

]]> By: Flotsam and jetsam (7/28) « scientia et sapientia http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/#comment-4236 Flotsam and jetsam (7/28) « scientia et sapientia Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:20:31 +0000 http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=988#comment-4236 [...] on the authorship of the Pauline epistles. Daniel Kirk opened the discussion with a post explaining his journey away from affirming Paul’s authorship of the pastoral epistles, though still seeing them as part of the canon. Brian responds with a post [...] [...] on the authorship of the Pauline epistles. Daniel Kirk opened the discussion with a post explaining his journey away from affirming Paul’s authorship of the pastoral epistles, though still seeing them as part of the canon. Brian responds with a post [...]

]]> By: Don L. http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/#comment-4224 Don L. Wed, 28 Jul 2010 06:55:14 +0000 http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=988#comment-4224 You accept the early church's decisions based on the basis of the decision they seemed to reach? Sorry .. you lost me there. Could you flesh that out? You accept the early church’s decisions based on the basis of the decision they seemed to reach? Sorry .. you lost me there. Could you flesh that out?

]]> By: Nazaroo http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/#comment-4223 Nazaroo Wed, 28 Jul 2010 06:06:11 +0000 http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=988#comment-4223 "An early twentieth century study (I can’t remember by whom, E. P. Sanders had me read it when I was at Duke) researched the coincidence of the vocabulary from Paul’s letters and the Pastorals, finding that the vocab of the latter that is not found elsewhere in Paul’s letters tends to be found in other Greek manuscripts that date to the 2d century, whereas Paul’s vocabulary corresponds with other Greek writings from the first." It would be great to find out exactly what study that was. It sounds like it might be out of copyright, and distributable on the net. peace Nazaroo “An early twentieth century study (I can’t remember by whom, E. P. Sanders had me read it when I was at Duke) researched the coincidence of the vocabulary from Paul’s letters and the Pastorals, finding that the vocab of the latter that is not found elsewhere in Paul’s letters tends to be found in other Greek manuscripts that date to the 2d century, whereas Paul’s vocabulary corresponds with other Greek writings from the first.”

It would be great to find out exactly what study that was. It sounds like it might be out of copyright, and distributable on the net.

peace
Nazaroo

]]> By: J. R. Daniel Kirk http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/#comment-4217 J. R. Daniel Kirk Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:51:01 +0000 http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=988#comment-4217 That's changing the question, I think. If you want to argue based on genuineness, honesty, those kinds of standards, that's fine. But if you want to argue that we accept them based on the early church's reasoning that they're acceptable based on apostolic authorship then the same questions apply to the lot. That’s changing the question, I think. If you want to argue based on genuineness, honesty, those kinds of standards, that’s fine.

But if you want to argue that we accept them based on the early church’s reasoning that they’re acceptable based on apostolic authorship then the same questions apply to the lot.

]]> By: Brian LePort http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/#comment-4215 Brian LePort Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:46:22 +0000 http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=988#comment-4215 Wouldn't there be a difference between mistakingly accepting Hebrews as Pauline when it claims no such thing and accepting the pastorals which do? I think the difference is that Matthew, the Johannine gospel and epistles, Revelation, and Hebrews do not make a misleading (deceiving?) claim from the very beginning. So while I agree with you that we cannot build our house on their reasoning process I disagree that we have a one for one analogy here. Wouldn’t there be a difference between mistakingly accepting Hebrews as Pauline when it claims no such thing and accepting the pastorals which do? I think the difference is that Matthew, the Johannine gospel and epistles, Revelation, and Hebrews do not make a misleading (deceiving?) claim from the very beginning. So while I agree with you that we cannot build our house on their reasoning process I disagree that we have a one for one analogy here.

]]> By: Bill http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/#comment-4212 Bill Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:26:17 +0000 http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=988#comment-4212 I gave two links above that explain my reasoning. For me, the chronology came first. If Tim stayed at Ephesus while Paul went to Illyricum (W.Macedonia; Acts 19-20; Rom.15) but then fled Ephesus for help (like he'd done twice at Thessalonica) in time to catch Paul on his way back down the Via Egnatia... and in time to sign his name to 2nd Corinthians... then 1st Tim can be written somewhere between Paul's three months in Achaia and the moment his newly appointed elders from Ephesus arrive on that beach. After working with that chronology for a year or less, the developmental view of Paul's approach to eldering started presenting itself. The key thought is neither Paul nor Barnabas, but Luke. The most likely time for Paul to have appointed elders in Philippi was at Luke's departure. If Paul had just come from a serious crisis in Corinth, and then appointed elders in Philippi, all the while thinking about how to solve Timothy's problems in Ephesus... then 1st Timothy makes perfect sense being handed off at Troas, which gave the young apostle a week's head start to go appoint those elders. The reason I think it was on the boat is because I assume Paul's mind was completely occupied by Corinth and Philippi, until that point. Except maybe while Sopater, Aristarchus & Secundus were helping Paul find Alexander's steps to get around Mt. Olympus on foot. His mind would have been free then, too, but it would have been much much harder to write. :-) This is all in the Bible, by the way. Haven't you read it? ;-) I gave two links above that explain my reasoning. For me, the chronology came first. If Tim stayed at Ephesus while Paul went to Illyricum (W.Macedonia; Acts 19-20; Rom.15) but then fled Ephesus for help (like he’d done twice at Thessalonica) in time to catch Paul on his way back down the Via Egnatia… and in time to sign his name to 2nd Corinthians… then 1st Tim can be written somewhere between Paul’s three months in Achaia and the moment his newly appointed elders from Ephesus arrive on that beach.

After working with that chronology for a year or less, the developmental view of Paul’s approach to eldering started presenting itself. The key thought is neither Paul nor Barnabas, but Luke. The most likely time for Paul to have appointed elders in Philippi was at Luke’s departure.

If Paul had just come from a serious crisis in Corinth, and then appointed elders in Philippi, all the while thinking about how to solve Timothy’s problems in Ephesus… then 1st Timothy makes perfect sense being handed off at Troas, which gave the young apostle a week’s head start to go appoint those elders.

The reason I think it was on the boat is because I assume Paul’s mind was completely occupied by Corinth and Philippi, until that point. Except maybe while Sopater, Aristarchus & Secundus were helping Paul find Alexander’s steps to get around Mt. Olympus on foot. His mind would have been free then, too, but it would have been much much harder to write. :-)

This is all in the Bible, by the way. Haven’t you read it? ;-)

]]> By: Siufung http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/26/paul-and-the-pastorals/#comment-4204 Siufung Wed, 28 Jul 2010 00:02:27 +0000 http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=988#comment-4204 After sending my post I thought the word "record" could have been a problem. I don't know whether it's the right word at all. Anyhow, at issue is truthfulness, integrity and whether one is trustworthy. In my culture when a son puts words into his deceased father's mouth, the son is considered not being truthful. That is, what the head of the family said is consider to be very important, and is not to be changed. The accuracy of the "recording" is not important. It is the faithful recollection and transmission that's important. The value system is one that demands a high degree of integrity and faithfulness, knowing that God is (or the "gods") are listening. If one claims that a document (or an oral tradition) is from God, then my immediate response is that the author attributed to the document (ie. the author stated in the text of the document itself) is to be the author herself/himself. Once again I am not speaking as an NT student in a seminary. I am asking a rather naive question by putting my cultural hat on. For example, if I am to follow the example of "Paul" to suffer for his faith in 2 Timothy, I'd love to think that this "Paul" is indeed Paul himself. Otherwise why would I have risked my life for these words? (By "I" I don't mean myself here. I refer to the many Christians in my country who risked their lives for being followers of Jesus.) I hope you understand where I am coming from. It is an existential issue for Christians who don't have a modern Western Christian tradition. I hope you don't mind if I put it a bit more bluntly. It is easy for me sitting in my comfortable room in Australia to say anything I like about authorship of the Pastorals. But I am reluctant to say that Paul is not really the author to my sisters and brothers in other parts of the world where they live on the words of the letters and trust that they are really Paul's words. (By the way, I really enjoy your book Unlocing Romans.) After sending my post I thought the word “record” could have been a problem. I don’t know whether it’s the right word at all. Anyhow, at issue is truthfulness, integrity and whether one is trustworthy. In my culture when a son puts words into his deceased father’s mouth, the son is considered not being truthful. That is, what the head of the family said is consider to be very important, and is not to be changed. The accuracy of the “recording” is not important. It is the faithful recollection and transmission that’s important. The value system is one that demands a high degree of integrity and faithfulness, knowing that God is (or the “gods”) are listening. If one claims that a document (or an oral tradition) is from God, then my immediate response is that the author attributed to the document (ie. the author stated in the text of the document itself) is to be the author herself/himself. Once again I am not speaking as an NT student in a seminary. I am asking a rather naive question by putting my cultural hat on. For example, if I am to follow the example of “Paul” to suffer for his faith in 2 Timothy, I’d love to think that this “Paul” is indeed Paul himself. Otherwise why would I have risked my life for these words? (By “I” I don’t mean myself here. I refer to the many Christians in my country who risked their lives for being followers of Jesus.) I hope you understand where I am coming from. It is an existential issue for Christians who don’t have a modern Western Christian tradition. I hope you don’t mind if I put it a bit more bluntly. It is easy for me sitting in my comfortable room in Australia to say anything I like about authorship of the Pastorals. But I am reluctant to say that Paul is not really the author to my sisters and brothers in other parts of the world where they live on the words of the letters and trust that they are really Paul’s words. (By the way, I really enjoy your book Unlocing Romans.)

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