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	<title>Comments on: Homosexuality and Justice</title>
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	<description>Telling the story of the story-bound God</description>
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		<title>By: garver</title>
		<link>http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/28/homosexuality-and-justice/#comment-4323</link>
		<dc:creator>garver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 16:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=1009#comment-4323</guid>
		<description>The banns (&quot;If anyone knows of just cause why these two...&quot;) were traditionally read out on three occasions prior to the actual nuptials.  The primary reason wasn&#039;t to provide opportunity for people to express whether or not they thought it was a bad match, but in order for any legal impediments to come to light.

For instance, if one of the partners was already secretly married or had made vows of celibacy, it would not be licit for there to be a marriage.  Or, a case where a partner lacked consent to the union because he or she was being pushed into the marriage by family, under duress.  Or, if unknown to anyone, the two partners were too closely related or otherwise violated rules of consanguinity.

I do think that marriage, in modernity, has become too much a creature of the State and that this is part of the difficulties we run into with regard to same-sex partnerships and other kinds of non-traditional households.  So much legal, political, tax, inheritance, insurance, custody, and other baggage/benefit has come to be attached to the legal definition of marriage.  (&lt;i&gt;Why&lt;/i&gt; this is the case is an interesting question too.)

If two unrelated &quot;spinster&quot; women lived together in a household 200 years ago, I doubt there would have been as much question about whether, for instance, the one could stay at the bedside of the other as she was ailing or whether whatever property they held in common would remain in the hands of the other upon the one&#039;s death (assuming no other immediate heirs, etc.).

But with the gradual increase in democratic rights and citizenship, there has also been a gradual regulation of the domestic sphere by the apparatus of the modern State, often in the name of what is in the compelling interest of the State and/or for the good of society (not that these necessarily coincide).

The extension of regulation as a form of benefit/privilege implies the withholding of those benefits/privileges from others, which is bound to lead to resentment to those who don&#039;t enjoy them.  Furthermore, in the context of a narrative where benefits/privileges are generally becoming more broadly applied under the rubric of &quot;rights,&quot; they will sooner or later be demanded by others in the name of justice.

Part of me wants to reject this whole approach to justice and modernity (and to worry whether extending civil rights is merely perpetuating a broken system).  But given that&#039;s what we&#039;re stuck with for the time being, I guess the question is what it means to love one&#039;s neighbor within our present context. And that&#039;s where Daniel&#039;s reflections intersect with things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The banns (&#8220;If anyone knows of just cause why these two&#8230;&#8221;) were traditionally read out on three occasions prior to the actual nuptials.  The primary reason wasn&#8217;t to provide opportunity for people to express whether or not they thought it was a bad match, but in order for any legal impediments to come to light.</p>
<p>For instance, if one of the partners was already secretly married or had made vows of celibacy, it would not be licit for there to be a marriage.  Or, a case where a partner lacked consent to the union because he or she was being pushed into the marriage by family, under duress.  Or, if unknown to anyone, the two partners were too closely related or otherwise violated rules of consanguinity.</p>
<p>I do think that marriage, in modernity, has become too much a creature of the State and that this is part of the difficulties we run into with regard to same-sex partnerships and other kinds of non-traditional households.  So much legal, political, tax, inheritance, insurance, custody, and other baggage/benefit has come to be attached to the legal definition of marriage.  (<i>Why</i> this is the case is an interesting question too.)</p>
<p>If two unrelated &#8220;spinster&#8221; women lived together in a household 200 years ago, I doubt there would have been as much question about whether, for instance, the one could stay at the bedside of the other as she was ailing or whether whatever property they held in common would remain in the hands of the other upon the one&#8217;s death (assuming no other immediate heirs, etc.).</p>
<p>But with the gradual increase in democratic rights and citizenship, there has also been a gradual regulation of the domestic sphere by the apparatus of the modern State, often in the name of what is in the compelling interest of the State and/or for the good of society (not that these necessarily coincide).</p>
<p>The extension of regulation as a form of benefit/privilege implies the withholding of those benefits/privileges from others, which is bound to lead to resentment to those who don&#8217;t enjoy them.  Furthermore, in the context of a narrative where benefits/privileges are generally becoming more broadly applied under the rubric of &#8220;rights,&#8221; they will sooner or later be demanded by others in the name of justice.</p>
<p>Part of me wants to reject this whole approach to justice and modernity (and to worry whether extending civil rights is merely perpetuating a broken system).  But given that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re stuck with for the time being, I guess the question is what it means to love one&#8217;s neighbor within our present context. And that&#8217;s where Daniel&#8217;s reflections intersect with things.</p>
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		<title>By: J. R. Daniel Kirk</title>
		<link>http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/28/homosexuality-and-justice/#comment-4291</link>
		<dc:creator>J. R. Daniel Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=1009#comment-4291</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t say that the wedding ceremony is the time for anyone to object. That time has come and gone. I would punch my dad or doctor in the face if he pulled that stunt at my wedding (in a &quot;give myself so my spouse might more fully live sort of cruciform sense,&quot; of course :) ).

I&#039;ve had friends who, in my estimation, were making less than ideal choices in a life partner. The time to make that case is before the wedding. At the wedding and after is my time to say that I&#039;m your friend, I love you, and I&#039;m committed to standing with you and walking beside you through whatever path you go down.

So yes, there&#039;s a place to object. But then there&#039;s a place to love and support those who have made decisions we don&#039;t approve of. And often, in so doing, we discover that we weren&#039;t as wrong as we thought; or, alternatively, we discover that we really do get to walk in love with our friend through hard times that we could foresee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t say that the wedding ceremony is the time for anyone to object. That time has come and gone. I would punch my dad or doctor in the face if he pulled that stunt at my wedding (in a &#8220;give myself so my spouse might more fully live sort of cruciform sense,&#8221; of course <img src='http://www.jrdkirk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  ).</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve had friends who, in my estimation, were making less than ideal choices in a life partner. The time to make that case is before the wedding. At the wedding and after is my time to say that I&#8217;m your friend, I love you, and I&#8217;m committed to standing with you and walking beside you through whatever path you go down.</p>
<p>So yes, there&#8217;s a place to object. But then there&#8217;s a place to love and support those who have made decisions we don&#8217;t approve of. And often, in so doing, we discover that we weren&#8217;t as wrong as we thought; or, alternatively, we discover that we really do get to walk in love with our friend through hard times that we could foresee.</p>
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		<title>By: Pduggie</title>
		<link>http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/28/homosexuality-and-justice/#comment-4288</link>
		<dc:creator>Pduggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=1009#comment-4288</guid>
		<description>traditionally, the wedding service is structured to allow someone who loves the couple to announce if there is any reason why the impending marriage may be harmful.

I&#039;d want my dad to object if he thought my wife was a horrible choice.

I&#039;d want my doctor to object if my wife was secretly my sister and would lead to all kinds of harms.

So it may be possible to construe civil restrictions on gay marriage as a minimalist legal discouragement to engage in harm. (surely, there could be many more intrusive ways of doing so, but those have left the barn long ago)

I don&#039;t think the &quot;household&#039; idea is that modern, BTW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>traditionally, the wedding service is structured to allow someone who loves the couple to announce if there is any reason why the impending marriage may be harmful.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d want my dad to object if he thought my wife was a horrible choice.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d want my doctor to object if my wife was secretly my sister and would lead to all kinds of harms.</p>
<p>So it may be possible to construe civil restrictions on gay marriage as a minimalist legal discouragement to engage in harm. (surely, there could be many more intrusive ways of doing so, but those have left the barn long ago)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the &#8220;household&#8217; idea is that modern, BTW.</p>
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		<title>By: J. R. Daniel Kirk</title>
		<link>http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/28/homosexuality-and-justice/#comment-4283</link>
		<dc:creator>J. R. Daniel Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=1009#comment-4283</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I was away from the computer yesterday and not able to respond.

There seems to be a general thread here that the sacred mystery of marriage is the church&#039;s business, civil unions are the state&#039;s. That seems to be a profitable way forward. 

Alex, you make a great point by questioning why sex has to be at the heart of a civil partnership. You made me realize that this whole thing seems to be very much centered on a very small and modern definition of a household. Your suggestion opens up some interesting possibilities for other ways to care for each other as a society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I was away from the computer yesterday and not able to respond.</p>
<p>There seems to be a general thread here that the sacred mystery of marriage is the church&#8217;s business, civil unions are the state&#8217;s. That seems to be a profitable way forward. </p>
<p>Alex, you make a great point by questioning why sex has to be at the heart of a civil partnership. You made me realize that this whole thing seems to be very much centered on a very small and modern definition of a household. Your suggestion opens up some interesting possibilities for other ways to care for each other as a society.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Packer</title>
		<link>http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/28/homosexuality-and-justice/#comment-4282</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Packer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:36:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=1009#comment-4282</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Daniel. Well said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Daniel. Well said.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Fairbanks</title>
		<link>http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/28/homosexuality-and-justice/#comment-4281</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Fairbanks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=1009#comment-4281</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately the sides are  battling over whether gay union should be recognized as set-apart and holy. This is a church issue. The state can not sanctify. It can recognize and enforce contracts and obligations. It taxes. 

The question is whether our government should recognize a domestic partnership and make special provision in the tax code for it. This should not be confused with the holy union of marriage sanctified by God and observed by the church. The government should be completely indifferent about the sexual habits and feelings of the partners in the relationship. If the partnership was over pork-futures, sex would not be an issue. Neither should it be over domestic partnerships. 

As Christians I think we should be relieved to give up any special recognition of marriage by the state. I remember seeing footage of Gavin Newsome marrying a gay couple some years back. Gavin Newsome reeks irreverence. The relationship was sanctified in the same measure as the man applying the sanctification. The bridal illustration of Christ&#039;s relationship to his church was tarnished.

The reason for the intractability of the problem is that both side are attempting to resolve a sacred issue in the secular courts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately the sides are  battling over whether gay union should be recognized as set-apart and holy. This is a church issue. The state can not sanctify. It can recognize and enforce contracts and obligations. It taxes. </p>
<p>The question is whether our government should recognize a domestic partnership and make special provision in the tax code for it. This should not be confused with the holy union of marriage sanctified by God and observed by the church. The government should be completely indifferent about the sexual habits and feelings of the partners in the relationship. If the partnership was over pork-futures, sex would not be an issue. Neither should it be over domestic partnerships. </p>
<p>As Christians I think we should be relieved to give up any special recognition of marriage by the state. I remember seeing footage of Gavin Newsome marrying a gay couple some years back. Gavin Newsome reeks irreverence. The relationship was sanctified in the same measure as the man applying the sanctification. The bridal illustration of Christ&#8217;s relationship to his church was tarnished.</p>
<p>The reason for the intractability of the problem is that both side are attempting to resolve a sacred issue in the secular courts.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/28/homosexuality-and-justice/#comment-4269</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=1009#comment-4269</guid>
		<description>Daniel, I think I&#039;m with you on most of this stuff, though I probably have more sympathy for those Christians who would take a different stance on it.  However, the one thing I just cannot convince myself on is the adoption issue.  I live in Cambridge, MA and minister in a city where we can&#039;t even remember the last time the mayor wasn&#039;t gay, where the campuses and politics are as far to the other extreme on these issues as that hate church in Kansas, and so I constantly meet same-sex couples who have children they are raising (my wife and I have also adopted).  I don&#039;t doubt the authenticity of their motives or their love, anymore than I do those of many heterosexual unbelievers I meet.  But I can&#039;t see how I could consistently support, from the gospel and the logic of the biblical narrative, this deviation from God&#039;s designs of the family in creation.  I&#039;m no Republican, but I just can&#039;t make this one fit.  Thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, I think I&#8217;m with you on most of this stuff, though I probably have more sympathy for those Christians who would take a different stance on it.  However, the one thing I just cannot convince myself on is the adoption issue.  I live in Cambridge, MA and minister in a city where we can&#8217;t even remember the last time the mayor wasn&#8217;t gay, where the campuses and politics are as far to the other extreme on these issues as that hate church in Kansas, and so I constantly meet same-sex couples who have children they are raising (my wife and I have also adopted).  I don&#8217;t doubt the authenticity of their motives or their love, anymore than I do those of many heterosexual unbelievers I meet.  But I can&#8217;t see how I could consistently support, from the gospel and the logic of the biblical narrative, this deviation from God&#8217;s designs of the family in creation.  I&#8217;m no Republican, but I just can&#8217;t make this one fit.  Thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: Siufung</title>
		<link>http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/28/homosexuality-and-justice/#comment-4262</link>
		<dc:creator>Siufung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=1009#comment-4262</guid>
		<description>Well said, Daniel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Daniel.</p>
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		<title>By: Lenise</title>
		<link>http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/28/homosexuality-and-justice/#comment-4260</link>
		<dc:creator>Lenise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=1009#comment-4260</guid>
		<description>This is a difficult issue for me. I am really unsure how a liberal democracy is supposed to operate once it forsakes its philosophical foundation. I think we have drifted into a fallacy if we believe that our government can operate as it was intended when the culture has strayed so far from Christian standards. It is one thing for a society to behave in an unChristian manner in even so pervasive and grave a matter as human bondage, and quite another to blatantly reject the standard and the means which calls us to repentance.

Obviously, the gay marriage issue is but a small part of this puzzle, and on its own can&#039;t return us to anything but a very narrowly defined cultural Christianity. Helpful, I know ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a difficult issue for me. I am really unsure how a liberal democracy is supposed to operate once it forsakes its philosophical foundation. I think we have drifted into a fallacy if we believe that our government can operate as it was intended when the culture has strayed so far from Christian standards. It is one thing for a society to behave in an unChristian manner in even so pervasive and grave a matter as human bondage, and quite another to blatantly reject the standard and the means which calls us to repentance.</p>
<p>Obviously, the gay marriage issue is but a small part of this puzzle, and on its own can&#8217;t return us to anything but a very narrowly defined cultural Christianity. Helpful, I know <img src='http://www.jrdkirk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: GC</title>
		<link>http://www.jrdkirk.com/2010/07/28/homosexuality-and-justice/#comment-4248</link>
		<dc:creator>GC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jrdkirk.com/?p=1009#comment-4248</guid>
		<description>Frankly, the gay community is not going to be satisfied with equal &quot;civil rights&quot; (which, actually, they already have). The goal is structural approval in law and active marginilization of any who dare dissent. This is already happening:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/28/court-university-expel-student-opposes-homosexuality/

In many ways, Christians who refuse to draw a line in the sand will find that a line has been drawn for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frankly, the gay community is not going to be satisfied with equal &#8220;civil rights&#8221; (which, actually, they already have). The goal is structural approval in law and active marginilization of any who dare dissent. This is already happening:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/28/court-university-expel-student-opposes-homosexuality/" rel="nofollow">http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/28/court-university-expel-student-opposes-homosexuality/</a></p>
<p>In many ways, Christians who refuse to draw a line in the sand will find that a line has been drawn for them.</p>
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